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	<title>Comments on: Growing an old-growth forest</title>
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	<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/</link>
	<description>How can we live without the unknown before us? —Rene Char</description>
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		<title>By: Gopi</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-271134</link>
		<dc:creator>Gopi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2007 17:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-271134</guid>
		<description>I have a short post on my blog about an utopian old growth forest. Just some fantasy that came into my mind :)

http://getgopi.blogspot.com/2007/06/anatomy-of-scene.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a short post on my blog about an utopian old growth forest. Just some fantasy that came into my mind :)</p>
<p><a href="http://getgopi.blogspot.com/2007/06/anatomy-of-scene.html" rel="nofollow">http://getgopi.blogspot.com/2007/06/anatomy-of-scene.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-223248</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 03:43:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-223248</guid>
		<description>Hi Dr. Beluzo - Thanks for taking the time to leave this comment. I am honored. 

I admit that in using the term &quot;old growth&quot; I am bowing to popular usage, whereas in fact I mean something more akin to &quot;primary forest.&quot; As I tried to make clear in my second paragraph, I don&#039;t think the focus should be exclusively (or even mainly) on preserving stands of big old trees; we need to preserve and recover large, natural -- or &lt;em&gt;wild&lt;/em&gt; --forested landscapes. 

The problem is, as always, how to communicate the ideals that I think we share here, and I would suggest that&#039;s something that ought to vary according to the audience. As you can see from some of the other comments here, I am not preaching to the choir: this is a general-interest blog, and these ideas are totally new for many people. I do like your application of autopoiesis to forest systems a lot -- that&#039;s why I included the Leverett quote -- and agree that it helps refocus the debate in a very useful direction. But &quot;autopoietic&quot; is going to be a big, scary word to a lot of people. 

Incidentally, I also think the word &quot;wild&quot; accomplishes many of the same things, at least for the kind of non-scientific writing I do. I agee with Dave Foreman that wildness is a better way to talk about the ecosystem attributes we want to see than naturalness: the latter merely implies the absence of humans, while the former emphasizes the prevalence of larger-than-human realities such as natural disturbance regimes, large carnivores, and free-flowing rivers. &quot;Wild&quot; meaning &quot;self-willed&quot; and all that. 

I&#039;m not a language purist, and I&#039;m also not above using the language of managment to try and make points with those who assume that responsible land stewardship (another problematic word) inevitably involves management. There are people coming out of the forestry schools who are susceptible to persuasion on many of these issues, but we have to meet them part-way. I&#039;m not willing to write them off, because many of them are people who genuinely love the woods. But they have also been, by and large, completely indoctrinated into the management ideology, and ideologies are tough things to confront head-on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dr. Beluzo &#8211; Thanks for taking the time to leave this comment. I am honored. </p>
<p>I admit that in using the term &#8220;old growth&#8221; I am bowing to popular usage, whereas in fact I mean something more akin to &#8220;primary forest.&#8221; As I tried to make clear in my second paragraph, I don&#8217;t think the focus should be exclusively (or even mainly) on preserving stands of big old trees; we need to preserve and recover large, natural &#8212; or <em>wild</em> &#8211;forested landscapes. </p>
<p>The problem is, as always, how to communicate the ideals that I think we share here, and I would suggest that&#8217;s something that ought to vary according to the audience. As you can see from some of the other comments here, I am not preaching to the choir: this is a general-interest blog, and these ideas are totally new for many people. I do like your application of autopoiesis to forest systems a lot &#8212; that&#8217;s why I included the Leverett quote &#8212; and agree that it helps refocus the debate in a very useful direction. But &#8220;autopoietic&#8221; is going to be a big, scary word to a lot of people. </p>
<p>Incidentally, I also think the word &#8220;wild&#8221; accomplishes many of the same things, at least for the kind of non-scientific writing I do. I agee with Dave Foreman that wildness is a better way to talk about the ecosystem attributes we want to see than naturalness: the latter merely implies the absence of humans, while the former emphasizes the prevalence of larger-than-human realities such as natural disturbance regimes, large carnivores, and free-flowing rivers. &#8220;Wild&#8221; meaning &#8220;self-willed&#8221; and all that. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a language purist, and I&#8217;m also not above using the language of managment to try and make points with those who assume that responsible land stewardship (another problematic word) inevitably involves management. There are people coming out of the forestry schools who are susceptible to persuasion on many of these issues, but we have to meet them part-way. I&#8217;m not willing to write them off, because many of them are people who genuinely love the woods. But they have also been, by and large, completely indoctrinated into the management ideology, and ideologies are tough things to confront head-on.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary A.  Beluzo</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-223166</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary A.  Beluzo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2007 01:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-223166</guid>
		<description>I coined the phrase &quot;autopoietic forest&quot; after thinking about what distinguishes natural forests (systems) from MANaged forests (systems).  Over the past several years I have given several multimedia presentations to clarify my views.  The autopoietic forest is a forest that has resulted from the collective genetic wisdom of closely coupled biota with the environment, co-evolving.  Autopoietic forests are dynamic, complex systems wherein the processes of the system are controlled/maintained by many species interacting with their environment. A MANaged system on the other had is one whose evolutionary trajectory has been disrupted and is now maintained consciously by a single species for the economic benefit of that species.  These MANaged systems are greatly simplified and are managed according to linear cause and effect understanding generally referred to as &quot;silviculture&quot; or agriculture with trees.

The problem with using the term &quot;old growth forest&quot; to preserve natural systems is that an old growth forest is simply a temporal snapshot in a shifting mosaic of vegetation.  IF preservation is based solely on the defintion of &quot;old growth&quot; then I contend that it is inevitable that ALL old growth forests will eventually be disturbed and return to earlier successive seres disqualifying them for preservation.  We need to focus more on the &quot;autopoietic&quot; nature of the forest.  IF the forest is not being MANaged and is therefore regulated by natural processes resulting from the interaction of many species and the environment then we can say the system is &quot;natural&quot; and it is these autopoietic forests that should be set aside for preservation.

Gary A. B eluzo
Professor of Environmental Science
Division of Science, Engineering, and Mathematics
Holyoke Community College
303 Homestead Avenue
Holyoke, MA 01040

gbeluzo@hcc.mass.edu
www.hcc.edu/forest</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I coined the phrase &#8220;autopoietic forest&#8221; after thinking about what distinguishes natural forests (systems) from MANaged forests (systems).  Over the past several years I have given several multimedia presentations to clarify my views.  The autopoietic forest is a forest that has resulted from the collective genetic wisdom of closely coupled biota with the environment, co-evolving.  Autopoietic forests are dynamic, complex systems wherein the processes of the system are controlled/maintained by many species interacting with their environment. A MANaged system on the other had is one whose evolutionary trajectory has been disrupted and is now maintained consciously by a single species for the economic benefit of that species.  These MANaged systems are greatly simplified and are managed according to linear cause and effect understanding generally referred to as &#8220;silviculture&#8221; or agriculture with trees.</p>
<p>The problem with using the term &#8220;old growth forest&#8221; to preserve natural systems is that an old growth forest is simply a temporal snapshot in a shifting mosaic of vegetation.  IF preservation is based solely on the defintion of &#8220;old growth&#8221; then I contend that it is inevitable that ALL old growth forests will eventually be disturbed and return to earlier successive seres disqualifying them for preservation.  We need to focus more on the &#8220;autopoietic&#8221; nature of the forest.  IF the forest is not being MANaged and is therefore regulated by natural processes resulting from the interaction of many species and the environment then we can say the system is &#8220;natural&#8221; and it is these autopoietic forests that should be set aside for preservation.</p>
<p>Gary A. B eluzo<br />
Professor of Environmental Science<br />
Division of Science, Engineering, and Mathematics<br />
Holyoke Community College<br />
303 Homestead Avenue<br />
Holyoke, MA 01040</p>
<p><a href="mailto:gbeluzo@hcc.mass.edu">gbeluzo@hcc.mass.edu</a><br />
<a href="http://www.hcc.edu/forest" rel="nofollow">http://www.hcc.edu/forest</a></p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-195365</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 13:43:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-195365</guid>
		<description>Beth - I&#039;m not sure there&#039;s much of a literature on this; forest ecologists are still busy arguing about what constitutes an old-growth forest in the first place. Are you in the east, or some other forest type? For the former, Dylan Jenkins of the Nature Conservancy has been doing some work in Pennsylvania, co-authoring a paper called  &quot;Old-Growth Restoration in Pennsylvania.&quot; This is very experimental work, and I find some of the assumptions a bit questionable - especially the notion that by managing for known old growth characteristics such as large trees and downed woody debris, we can improve old-growth function. The bibliography for Jenkins et al. might be useful, too, if you can get him to send you a copy. (I&#039;ll send his address via email.)

Depending on the type of forest and its disturbance/management history, radically different strategies might be in order. For example, if you&#039;re dealing with a white oak forest or post oak savanna, you&#039;d probably want to look at prescribed burning. If you&#039;re dealing with a forest that&#039;s been badly infected with invasive plants, some sort of eradication program using Boy Scout volunteers and/or Round-Up might be advisable. Seeding and innoculation might be advisable to restore missing wildflowers or fungi, if relatively local germ plasm and undisturbed soils can be founnd. Our main management tactic here, as I think I mentioned in the article, has been whittailed deer population control through effective hunter management; the nuts and bolts of how to do that will obviously vary from state to state.

The two hardest things about managing for old growth I think are: 1) accepting that we really don&#039;t know what&#039;s best, and therefore responding with extreme conservatism and humility to unexpected developments (e.g. not spraying BT for a gypsy moth outbreak, not rushing to plant trees in the wake of a stand-clearing disturbance); and 2) thinking centuries ahead, well beyond the lifetimes of the current owners. If they are serious about managing for old growth, I would certainly advise some sort of conservation easement, perhaps even outright ownership by a nonprofit organization. (We&#039;re moving in the latter direction ourselves.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beth &#8211; I&#8217;m not sure there&#8217;s much of a literature on this; forest ecologists are still busy arguing about what constitutes an old-growth forest in the first place. Are you in the east, or some other forest type? For the former, Dylan Jenkins of the Nature Conservancy has been doing some work in Pennsylvania, co-authoring a paper called  &#8220;Old-Growth Restoration in Pennsylvania.&#8221; This is very experimental work, and I find some of the assumptions a bit questionable &#8211; especially the notion that by managing for known old growth characteristics such as large trees and downed woody debris, we can improve old-growth function. The bibliography for Jenkins et al. might be useful, too, if you can get him to send you a copy. (I&#8217;ll send his address via email.)</p>
<p>Depending on the type of forest and its disturbance/management history, radically different strategies might be in order. For example, if you&#8217;re dealing with a white oak forest or post oak savanna, you&#8217;d probably want to look at prescribed burning. If you&#8217;re dealing with a forest that&#8217;s been badly infected with invasive plants, some sort of eradication program using Boy Scout volunteers and/or Round-Up might be advisable. Seeding and innoculation might be advisable to restore missing wildflowers or fungi, if relatively local germ plasm and undisturbed soils can be founnd. Our main management tactic here, as I think I mentioned in the article, has been whittailed deer population control through effective hunter management; the nuts and bolts of how to do that will obviously vary from state to state.</p>
<p>The two hardest things about managing for old growth I think are: 1) accepting that we really don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s best, and therefore responding with extreme conservatism and humility to unexpected developments (e.g. not spraying BT for a gypsy moth outbreak, not rushing to plant trees in the wake of a stand-clearing disturbance); and 2) thinking centuries ahead, well beyond the lifetimes of the current owners. If they are serious about managing for old growth, I would certainly advise some sort of conservation easement, perhaps even outright ownership by a nonprofit organization. (We&#8217;re moving in the latter direction ourselves.)</p>
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		<title>By: Beth2</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-195332</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-195332</guid>
		<description>Dave,

I&#039;ve spent all day researching old growth forest info for a landowner client of mine (forestry firm).  I&#039;ll definitely be bookmarking your site as a source of knowledge for myself and the client. What I&#039;m having a hard time finding are any recommendations, action plans or management techniques to enhance the old growth habitat. I know that older growth forests are especially intricate in structure and balance, so I&#039;m trying to pool all resources I can find to ensure that my client leaves an old growth legacy. Have any helpful links in mind?

Thank you for the fantastic site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve spent all day researching old growth forest info for a landowner client of mine (forestry firm).  I&#8217;ll definitely be bookmarking your site as a source of knowledge for myself and the client. What I&#8217;m having a hard time finding are any recommendations, action plans or management techniques to enhance the old growth habitat. I know that older growth forests are especially intricate in structure and balance, so I&#8217;m trying to pool all resources I can find to ensure that my client leaves an old growth legacy. Have any helpful links in mind?</p>
<p>Thank you for the fantastic site.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-182248</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 11:11:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-182248</guid>
		<description>Hi Beth - I&#039;m glad you found this interesting. Thanks for the reminder that these are not household terms - I tend to forget that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Beth &#8211; I&#8217;m glad you found this interesting. Thanks for the reminder that these are not household terms &#8211; I tend to forget that.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-182020</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 02:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-182020</guid>
		<description>This is so intriguing.  I never thought of forests as old or new growth.  Now I&#039;ll be looking to visit an old growth forest.  Thank you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is so intriguing.  I never thought of forests as old or new growth.  Now I&#8217;ll be looking to visit an old growth forest.  Thank you.</p>
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		<title>By: Oekologie # 6 at Greg Laden</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-165313</link>
		<dc:creator>Oekologie # 6 at Greg Laden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Jun 2007 02:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-165313</guid>
		<description>[...] Home and Garden Growing an old-growth forest Via Negativa, Home and Garden Editor A couple weeks ago, my mother gave a short walking tour to a couple of guests who were seeing our woods for the first time. â€œIt looks like something out of the Lord of Rings!â€? they exclaimed. I guess if you&#039;re used to looking at younger forests, the portions of Plummer&#039;s Hollow that have avoided lumbering since the mid- to late-19th century might look pretty impressive by comparison. Our forest doesn&#039;t yet meet even the most minimal definitions of old growth â€” for example, a median age of half of the dominant tree species&#039; maximum longevity in the majority of stands â€” but it does exceed by several decades the average age of private or public forests in Pennsylvania, and is beginning to acquire a number of standard old-growth characteristics that add up, perhaps, to a general impression of enchantment. &#8230;Continued on Page 22 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Home and Garden Growing an old-growth forest Via Negativa, Home and Garden Editor A couple weeks ago, my mother gave a short walking tour to a couple of guests who were seeing our woods for the first time. â€œIt looks like something out of the Lord of Rings!â€? they exclaimed. I guess if you&#8217;re used to looking at younger forests, the portions of Plummer&#8217;s Hollow that have avoided lumbering since the mid- to late-19th century might look pretty impressive by comparison. Our forest doesn&#8217;t yet meet even the most minimal definitions of old growth â€” for example, a median age of half of the dominant tree species&#8217; maximum longevity in the majority of stands â€” but it does exceed by several decades the average age of private or public forests in Pennsylvania, and is beginning to acquire a number of standard old-growth characteristics that add up, perhaps, to a general impression of enchantment. &#8230;Continued on Page 22 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-156121</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 19:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-156121</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I&#039;ve heard that&#039;s a nice one. I haven&#039;t been down there yet, but I&#039;ve seen photos. Tulip poplar is an impressive tree when it gets old (well, at any age, actually).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;ve heard that&#8217;s a nice one. I haven&#8217;t been down there yet, but I&#8217;ve seen photos. Tulip poplar is an impressive tree when it gets old (well, at any age, actually).</p>
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		<title>By: marly</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-156024</link>
		<dc:creator>marly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 May 2007 15:56:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/05/29/growing-future-old-growth/#comment-156024</guid>
		<description>Only you could make me link up &quot;beauty&quot; and &quot;grub,&quot; Dave!

I once got lost in the Joyce Kilmer National Forest &quot;virgin&quot; lands. And was much impressed both by the trees and the condition of lostness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only you could make me link up &#8220;beauty&#8221; and &#8220;grub,&#8221; Dave!</p>
<p>I once got lost in the Joyce Kilmer National Forest &#8220;virgin&#8221; lands. And was much impressed both by the trees and the condition of lostness.</p>
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