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	<title>Comments on: Pressing on</title>
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	<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/</link>
	<description>How can we live without the unknown before us? —Rene Char</description>
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		<title>By: Crafty Green Poet</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7449</link>
		<dc:creator>Crafty Green Poet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 17:32:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7449</guid>
		<description>LOL, yes badly written formal poetry is much more fun!! Yes, you&#039;re definitely right there. 

Blogs are a great promotional tool, I have a series of writing workshops coming up that i was asked to give after an environmental organisation in town stumbled on my blog. Plus my first payment for writing came through blogging contacts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL, yes badly written formal poetry is much more fun!! Yes, you&#8217;re definitely right there. </p>
<p>Blogs are a great promotional tool, I have a series of writing workshops coming up that i was asked to give after an environmental organisation in town stumbled on my blog. Plus my first payment for writing came through blogging contacts.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7448</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 13:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7448</guid>
		<description>CGP - &lt;blockquote&gt;badly written formal poetry is much more obviously bad than badly written free verse.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yes, but it&#039;s also a lot more fun, don&#039;t you think?

Jo - Well, I used to share some of those negative reactions, in part because the confessional style seemed to excuse much sloppiness, as Juliet says. But Alicia Suskin Ostriker&#039;s &lt;em&gt;Stealing the Language&lt;/em&gt; broadened my perspective considerably: one of the few absolutely essential volumes of criticism on modern poetry.

Paul Squires - I agree; it would be nice to make money. But I enjoy giving stuff away, too, of course. Print-on-demand self-publishing, via Lulu.com or similar outfits, may be part of the answer. Most publishers offer 15% royalties at best, so if you&#039;re any good at marketing yourself, you can make a lot more money self-publishing. 

And blogs are a great promotional tool, presuming you&#039;re willing to network properly. &lt;a href=&quot;http://simplywait.blogspot.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Patry Francis&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; success with &lt;em&gt;The Liar&#039;s Diary&lt;/em&gt; offers an excellent lesson in how to combine blogging and online networking with a traditional publisher&#039;s marketing strategy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CGP &#8211;<br />
<blockquote>badly written formal poetry is much more obviously bad than badly written free verse.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yes, but it&#8217;s also a lot more fun, don&#8217;t you think?</p>
<p>Jo &#8211; Well, I used to share some of those negative reactions, in part because the confessional style seemed to excuse much sloppiness, as Juliet says. But Alicia Suskin Ostriker&#8217;s <em>Stealing the Language</em> broadened my perspective considerably: one of the few absolutely essential volumes of criticism on modern poetry.</p>
<p>Paul Squires &#8211; I agree; it would be nice to make money. But I enjoy giving stuff away, too, of course. Print-on-demand self-publishing, via Lulu.com or similar outfits, may be part of the answer. Most publishers offer 15% royalties at best, so if you&#8217;re any good at marketing yourself, you can make a lot more money self-publishing. </p>
<p>And blogs are a great promotional tool, presuming you&#8217;re willing to network properly. <a href="http://simplywait.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">Patry Francis&#8217;s</a> success with <em>The Liar&#8217;s Diary</em> offers an excellent lesson in how to combine blogging and online networking with a traditional publisher&#8217;s marketing strategy.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Squires</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7447</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Squires</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 09:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7447</guid>
		<description>Yeah, rage on, all well said. Blogging will soon start to be seen as a medium of artistic expression, creating a blog is creating a single unified work of art, the use of links and community becomes part of the medium, if we could figure out some basic monetising technique that didn&#039;t involve google ads or throwing links for money alone but which was honest and ethical we could just forget all about the paper publishing world and let them get on it with their old unilinear one dimensional black and white words in row world while we create an entirely new art form, that would be fun,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, rage on, all well said. Blogging will soon start to be seen as a medium of artistic expression, creating a blog is creating a single unified work of art, the use of links and community becomes part of the medium, if we could figure out some basic monetising technique that didn&#8217;t involve google ads or throwing links for money alone but which was honest and ethical we could just forget all about the paper publishing world and let them get on it with their old unilinear one dimensional black and white words in row world while we create an entirely new art form, that would be fun,</p>
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		<title>By: Jo</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7446</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 08:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7446</guid>
		<description>Dave, big thanks for your perspective on confessional poetry, I agree, there is a sexism in it, because women do tend to write it (myself included) and I am at a loss to understand the backlash......why is it any worse if badly done than any other kind of crap writing.......oh and many thanks for the compliment, right back at you, absolutely. 
Juliet I agree about the badly written formal poetry (we keep bumping into each other on these discussions GRIN).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, big thanks for your perspective on confessional poetry, I agree, there is a sexism in it, because women do tend to write it (myself included) and I am at a loss to understand the backlash&#8230;&#8230;why is it any worse if badly done than any other kind of crap writing&#8230;&#8230;.oh and many thanks for the compliment, right back at you, absolutely.<br />
Juliet I agree about the badly written formal poetry (we keep bumping into each other on these discussions GRIN).</p>
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		<title>By: Crafty Green Poet</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7445</link>
		<dc:creator>Crafty Green Poet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 06:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7445</guid>
		<description>Yes you&#039;re probably right about the proportion of bad verse to good verse having stayed more or less the same but its more likely to see the light of day these days - anyone can go to an open mike event or start a blog..... I love free verse and I think that in fact the growth in free verse has actually prevented a lot of doggerel, as badly written formal poetry is much more obviously bad than badly written free verse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes you&#8217;re probably right about the proportion of bad verse to good verse having stayed more or less the same but its more likely to see the light of day these days &#8211; anyone can go to an open mike event or start a blog&#8230;.. I love free verse and I think that in fact the growth in free verse has actually prevented a lot of doggerel, as badly written formal poetry is much more obviously bad than badly written free verse.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7444</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7444</guid>
		<description>All very true. But I&#039;ve never shared the fears that many critics seem to have about that, that the huge amount of bad poetry out there hurts the cause of poetry in general (and i don&#039;t believe that the introduction of free verse has either increased or decreased the  proportion of  doggerel to good poetry). I&#039;m sure if we were able to go back in time to Elizabethan England or the Tang Dynasty China, we&#039;d find that 95% of the poetry written then was garbage, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All very true. But I&#8217;ve never shared the fears that many critics seem to have about that, that the huge amount of bad poetry out there hurts the cause of poetry in general (and i don&#8217;t believe that the introduction of free verse has either increased or decreased the  proportion of  doggerel to good poetry). I&#8217;m sure if we were able to go back in time to Elizabethan England or the Tang Dynasty China, we&#8217;d find that 95% of the poetry written then was garbage, too.</p>
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		<title>By: Crafty Green Poet</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7443</link>
		<dc:creator>Crafty Green Poet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 20:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7443</guid>
		<description>I think confessional poetry is a difficult one, because I think the sloppiest poetry will tend to be confessional, people just writing down their emotions to get them out with no real thought for form. There&#039;s an increasing amount of that type of poetry around too. It has its place, poetry can be very valuable therapy, but its not necessarily going to be able to hold its own. Then confessional poetry may all get tarred with that brush. Yes, there is sexism too in the anti confessional poetry stance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think confessional poetry is a difficult one, because I think the sloppiest poetry will tend to be confessional, people just writing down their emotions to get them out with no real thought for form. There&#8217;s an increasing amount of that type of poetry around too. It has its place, poetry can be very valuable therapy, but its not necessarily going to be able to hold its own. Then confessional poetry may all get tarred with that brush. Yes, there is sexism too in the anti confessional poetry stance.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7442</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 13:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7442</guid>
		<description>Lucy - Yes, indeed - serendipity plays a major role in helping us find each other. Whether that&#039;s enough of a justification for bloggers to expend a major effort on SEO, I don&#039;t know. I do appreciate blogging platforms like WordPress that are built to be search-engine friendly and easily accessible to all comers, I&#039;ll admit. At one level it&#039;s a basid part of usability. But the flip side of that is the enormous amount of comment spam one gets. I&#039;m on track to reach half a million in just two years.

I always thought you and Joe were old friends, though - I don&#039;t realize you met through blogging! A very fruitful encounter, then.

CGP - Yes, and community for poetry bloggers can turn into a gentle sort of workshopping, too, can&#039;t it? Though I gather there are places online where one can get more unsparing critiques of one&#039;s writing if that&#039;s what one is after.

As for the attitude toward personal blogging, let&#039;s remember that there are a lot of poetry critics who don&#039;t care for the confessional style in poetry, either, regardless of how many fans it attracts. Some of that stems from sexism, I think, since  the genre is dominated by women, and/or  snobbery: the notion that the personal is trivial by definition unless it concerns itself with weighty issues of life and death and Man&#039;s Search for Meaning.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lucy &#8211; Yes, indeed &#8211; serendipity plays a major role in helping us find each other. Whether that&#8217;s enough of a justification for bloggers to expend a major effort on SEO, I don&#8217;t know. I do appreciate blogging platforms like WordPress that are built to be search-engine friendly and easily accessible to all comers, I&#8217;ll admit. At one level it&#8217;s a basid part of usability. But the flip side of that is the enormous amount of comment spam one gets. I&#8217;m on track to reach half a million in just two years.</p>
<p>I always thought you and Joe were old friends, though &#8211; I don&#8217;t realize you met through blogging! A very fruitful encounter, then.</p>
<p>CGP &#8211; Yes, and community for poetry bloggers can turn into a gentle sort of workshopping, too, can&#8217;t it? Though I gather there are places online where one can get more unsparing critiques of one&#8217;s writing if that&#8217;s what one is after.</p>
<p>As for the attitude toward personal blogging, let&#8217;s remember that there are a lot of poetry critics who don&#8217;t care for the confessional style in poetry, either, regardless of how many fans it attracts. Some of that stems from sexism, I think, since  the genre is dominated by women, and/or  snobbery: the notion that the personal is trivial by definition unless it concerns itself with weighty issues of life and death and Man&#8217;s Search for Meaning.</p>
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		<title>By: Crafty Green Poet</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7441</link>
		<dc:creator>Crafty Green Poet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 07:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7441</guid>
		<description>Interesting discussion, sorry to get to it so late! I like the interaction part of blogging, the sense of community both in terms of visiting other people&#039;s blogs and in getting comments on my blog. I have to be honest and say that if I got almost no comments on my blogs, I would have given up after a year and concentrated on trying to get published elsewhere. 

 I can understand why people just dismiss blogging if all they know of it is the personal diary type of blog (not that i think that type of blog is bad but i can see why it doesn&#039;t come across well)

I like to think that my blog is well put together and can be seen as a package where everything is serving the same function. But I know that people who don&#039;t like all the aspects of it (poetry, craft, environment, reviews) may be put off reading the whole thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting discussion, sorry to get to it so late! I like the interaction part of blogging, the sense of community both in terms of visiting other people&#8217;s blogs and in getting comments on my blog. I have to be honest and say that if I got almost no comments on my blogs, I would have given up after a year and concentrated on trying to get published elsewhere. </p>
<p> I can understand why people just dismiss blogging if all they know of it is the personal diary type of blog (not that i think that type of blog is bad but i can see why it doesn&#8217;t come across well)</p>
<p>I like to think that my blog is well put together and can be seen as a package where everything is serving the same function. But I know that people who don&#8217;t like all the aspects of it (poetry, craft, environment, reviews) may be put off reading the whole thing.</p>
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		<title>By: Lucy</title>
		<link>http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/pressing-on/#comment-7440</link>
		<dc:creator>Lucy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 06:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2008/03/27/pressing-on/#comment-7440</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still a sucker for blogging on blogging! Good discussion.

Not much to add, except rather irrelevantly and not very cleverly that I found Joe Hyam while googling for pink onions, and another friend who I e-mail with as well as blogging exchanges while looking for the words of a song, so search engine searches do yield readers sometimes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still a sucker for blogging on blogging! Good discussion.</p>
<p>Not much to add, except rather irrelevantly and not very cleverly that I found Joe Hyam while googling for pink onions, and another friend who I e-mail with as well as blogging exchanges while looking for the words of a song, so search engine searches do yield readers sometimes.</p>
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