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	<title>
	Comments on: The web and other fables	</title>
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	<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/</link>
	<description>Purveyors of fine poetry since 2003.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:38:26 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: David Harmon		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1358</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Harmon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 20:38:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1358</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;What I find fascinating here (well, *one* of the things I find fascinating hereâ€¦) is that a discussion of *place* very naturally evolved into a discussion of *relationship*.&quot;

Well yes.  Much of our host&#039;s writing is about relationship *to* place, and to the things about us.  Note above how he doesn&#039;t merely &quot;drink&quot; his beer, but &quot;groks&quot; it (ala Heinlein&#039;s _Stranger_ in a _Strange_ _Land_).  Whenever we go &quot;to&quot; or &quot;from&quot; a place, we are seeking to change our relationship to both the place, and whatever might reside within that place -- objects (perhaps objects of need), people (ditto), or &quot;the unknown&quot; (and this blog by its nature asserts that this too, can be an object of need).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What I find fascinating here (well, *one* of the things I find fascinating hereâ€¦) is that a discussion of *place* very naturally evolved into a discussion of *relationship*.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well yes.  Much of our host&#8217;s writing is about relationship *to* place, and to the things about us.  Note above how he doesn&#8217;t merely &#8220;drink&#8221; his beer, but &#8220;groks&#8221; it (ala Heinlein&#8217;s _Stranger_ in a _Strange_ _Land_).  Whenever we go &#8220;to&#8221; or &#8220;from&#8221; a place, we are seeking to change our relationship to both the place, and whatever might reside within that place &#8212; objects (perhaps objects of need), people (ditto), or &#8220;the unknown&#8221; (and this blog by its nature asserts that this too, can be an object of need).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1357</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 18:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1357</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yeah. As David says, it&#039;s a mixed blessing. I am, like you, fairly gregarious.  I&#039;ve lived here a lot longer than you&#039;ve lived in Keene, so I do know a fair number of people, though not nearly as many as I could. Still, as a result of growing up in this area, which is culturally and politically quite conservative, I feel comfortable with it -- to the point where I actually get a little nervous on rare occasions when I&#039;m around too many people who are weird in the same way I am. It just feels &lt;em&gt;wrong&lt;/em&gt;, somehow!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah. As David says, it&#8217;s a mixed blessing. I am, like you, fairly gregarious.  I&#8217;ve lived here a lot longer than you&#8217;ve lived in Keene, so I do know a fair number of people, though not nearly as many as I could. Still, as a result of growing up in this area, which is culturally and politically quite conservative, I feel comfortable with it &#8212; to the point where I actually get a little nervous on rare occasions when I&#8217;m around too many people who are weird in the same way I am. It just feels <em>wrong</em>, somehow!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lorianne		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1356</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lorianne]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 17:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1356</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What I find fascinating here (well, *one* of the things I find fascinating here...) is that a discussion of *place* very naturally evolved into a discussion of *relationship*.  

Dave, I resonate with what you say about living almost as a hermit...although my teaching brings me into contact with lots of folks, when I come home to my apartment, it&#039;s pretty much me &#038; the dog.  I&#039;m not very well connected here in Keene:  my closest friends are in Ohio, Massachusetts, and various other far-off places.  I&#039;m right now reading *Bowling Alone*, and it&#039;s hitting very close to home:  for all I write about Keene, I don&#039;t know my neighbors, don&#039;t belong to a church, don&#039;t have a local social network, etc.

So, why is it that an otherwise outgoing person is so much of her time online:  &quot;What&#039;s a nice girl like me doing in a place like this?&quot;

I think Peter hits it on the head:  it&#039;s difficult to find like-minded people if you&#039;re at all &quot;unusual&quot; in your tastes, proclivities, or lifestyle.  I don&#039;t have kids or a TV, so right there I&#039;m radically different from many of my neighbors; when you add Zen to the mix...well, the results aren&#039;t pretty.

As much as I don&#039;t want online/virtual places to supplant or replace actual places, I should make a greater &quot;play well with others&quot; in the real world.  I mean, if I fell &#038; broke my leg tomorrow, none of my online friends could rush over to lend me a hand...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I find fascinating here (well, *one* of the things I find fascinating here&#8230;) is that a discussion of *place* very naturally evolved into a discussion of *relationship*.  </p>
<p>Dave, I resonate with what you say about living almost as a hermit&#8230;although my teaching brings me into contact with lots of folks, when I come home to my apartment, it&#8217;s pretty much me &amp; the dog.  I&#8217;m not very well connected here in Keene:  my closest friends are in Ohio, Massachusetts, and various other far-off places.  I&#8217;m right now reading *Bowling Alone*, and it&#8217;s hitting very close to home:  for all I write about Keene, I don&#8217;t know my neighbors, don&#8217;t belong to a church, don&#8217;t have a local social network, etc.</p>
<p>So, why is it that an otherwise outgoing person is so much of her time online:  &#8220;What&#8217;s a nice girl like me doing in a place like this?&#8221;</p>
<p>I think Peter hits it on the head:  it&#8217;s difficult to find like-minded people if you&#8217;re at all &#8220;unusual&#8221; in your tastes, proclivities, or lifestyle.  I don&#8217;t have kids or a TV, so right there I&#8217;m radically different from many of my neighbors; when you add Zen to the mix&#8230;well, the results aren&#8217;t pretty.</p>
<p>As much as I don&#8217;t want online/virtual places to supplant or replace actual places, I should make a greater &#8220;play well with others&#8221; in the real world.  I mean, if I fell &amp; broke my leg tomorrow, none of my online friends could rush over to lend me a hand&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Harmon		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1355</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Harmon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 12:09:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1355</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Peter: &quot;Most of the people I interact with at work, home, and other offline settings are not like me. One of the neatest things about blogging is the disproportionate number of people who are like me. That is, they share certain personality traits and interests: people who enjoy abstraction, writing, and self-publishing.&quot;

Well... those folks are &quot;like you&quot; in very particular ways -- indeed, in the ways that are highlighted by the &#039;Net. And (trust me on this one) it&#039;s not that everyone out there has these characteristics, it&#039;s that you&#039;re finding and &quot;hanging out with&quot; such people.

I actually consider that a mixed blessing of the &#039;Net -- it&#039;s really easy to find people who agree with you in any given fashion. In contrast, in &quot;meatspace&quot;, you need to physically encounter unknown people, engage in conversations, and keep chatting with them until you find your similarities. (Of course, there are various &quot;signals&quot; that can help, such as clothing etc.) In the process, though, you also will meet folks who are very different from you, and to keep up the conversation, you need to deal with them *right there*, in some way short of flipping them the bird. That can be the most interesting part of conversations, or the most frustrating -- sometimes even physically dangerous. In my own case, I have enough social difficulties in the real world to make the business of &quot;meeting people&quot; quite frustrating.
I probably wouldn&#039;t ever have met our host in the real world, for a number of reasons, not limited to his own hermitage. Not to mention that even in much of my own country, my social and political background would make me somewhat less welcome than a tentacled monster from Mars. On the &#039;net, you can usually just &quot;disappear&quot; from anyone who you find too alien, or if you prefer, harangue or insult them with little consequence. Note that I&#039;ve been mistreated by folks both on the &#039;net and in &quot;real life&quot; -- given my own talents, I&#039;m much better at defending myself online.

I find that my own complexity means that even on the &#039;net, nobody is &quot;exactly&quot; like me.... but I can find people who share *some* elements, and explore the differences we *also* have. I can &quot;browse through&quot; dozens of people&#039;s discussions in search of something interesting, leaving passing shots at the &quot;nutballs&quot; or confusing insights at friendlier forums. Much more fun, and less stressful, than wandering through parties of people I barely know, or trying to make sense of semi-coherent folks at bus stops....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter: &#8220;Most of the people I interact with at work, home, and other offline settings are not like me. One of the neatest things about blogging is the disproportionate number of people who are like me. That is, they share certain personality traits and interests: people who enjoy abstraction, writing, and self-publishing.&#8221;</p>
<p>Well&#8230; those folks are &#8220;like you&#8221; in very particular ways &#8212; indeed, in the ways that are highlighted by the &#8216;Net. And (trust me on this one) it&#8217;s not that everyone out there has these characteristics, it&#8217;s that you&#8217;re finding and &#8220;hanging out with&#8221; such people.</p>
<p>I actually consider that a mixed blessing of the &#8216;Net &#8212; it&#8217;s really easy to find people who agree with you in any given fashion. In contrast, in &#8220;meatspace&#8221;, you need to physically encounter unknown people, engage in conversations, and keep chatting with them until you find your similarities. (Of course, there are various &#8220;signals&#8221; that can help, such as clothing etc.) In the process, though, you also will meet folks who are very different from you, and to keep up the conversation, you need to deal with them *right there*, in some way short of flipping them the bird. That can be the most interesting part of conversations, or the most frustrating &#8212; sometimes even physically dangerous. In my own case, I have enough social difficulties in the real world to make the business of &#8220;meeting people&#8221; quite frustrating.<br />
I probably wouldn&#8217;t ever have met our host in the real world, for a number of reasons, not limited to his own hermitage. Not to mention that even in much of my own country, my social and political background would make me somewhat less welcome than a tentacled monster from Mars. On the &#8216;net, you can usually just &#8220;disappear&#8221; from anyone who you find too alien, or if you prefer, harangue or insult them with little consequence. Note that I&#8217;ve been mistreated by folks both on the &#8216;net and in &#8220;real life&#8221; &#8212; given my own talents, I&#8217;m much better at defending myself online.</p>
<p>I find that my own complexity means that even on the &#8216;net, nobody is &#8220;exactly&#8221; like me&#8230;. but I can find people who share *some* elements, and explore the differences we *also* have. I can &#8220;browse through&#8221; dozens of people&#8217;s discussions in search of something interesting, leaving passing shots at the &#8220;nutballs&#8221; or confusing insights at friendlier forums. Much more fun, and less stressful, than wandering through parties of people I barely know, or trying to make sense of semi-coherent folks at bus stops&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1354</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 11:15:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1354</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Peter - Whoa buddy. I don&#039;t know whether to be flattered or frightened that you are using Via Negativa that way! I guess I&#039;m glad my prolixity is proving to be of some practical (?) value.

Natalie - Of course I could&#039;ve made it clearer, but I wanted to make people stop and concentrate. Guess it worked!

I published a photo of my house &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vianegativa.us/2005/11/18/mid-term/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.
Additional photos of the mountain can be found by clicking on the Plummer&#039;s Hollow category in the sidebar.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter &#8211; Whoa buddy. I don&#8217;t know whether to be flattered or frightened that you are using Via Negativa that way! I guess I&#8217;m glad my prolixity is proving to be of some practical (?) value.</p>
<p>Natalie &#8211; Of course I could&#8217;ve made it clearer, but I wanted to make people stop and concentrate. Guess it worked!</p>
<p>I published a photo of my house <a href="http://www.vianegativa.us/2005/11/18/mid-term/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.<br />
Additional photos of the mountain can be found by clicking on the Plummer&#8217;s Hollow category in the sidebar.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Natalie		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1353</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Natalie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 09:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1353</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dave, just goes to show what a city-dweller I am: 
When I read &quot;...helmet on  legs...&quot; (your description of what stopped you on the road) I immediately imagined a motorcycle-rider and something vaguely ominous about to happen.
It took some re-adjusting of my inner camera to work out that you were talking about a turtle.
You are very fortunate to be living in a place where turtles can stop traffic.
I&#039;d love to see a picture of your house and the mountain it&#039;s on. 

See, this is why I love the blogging community. Instant and direct rapport/reaction/responses along chosen paths. In real life, communication is not usually like that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, just goes to show what a city-dweller I am:<br />
When I read &#8220;&#8230;helmet on  legs&#8230;&#8221; (your description of what stopped you on the road) I immediately imagined a motorcycle-rider and something vaguely ominous about to happen.<br />
It took some re-adjusting of my inner camera to work out that you were talking about a turtle.<br />
You are very fortunate to be living in a place where turtles can stop traffic.<br />
I&#8217;d love to see a picture of your house and the mountain it&#8217;s on. </p>
<p>See, this is why I love the blogging community. Instant and direct rapport/reaction/responses along chosen paths. In real life, communication is not usually like that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Peter		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1352</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 04:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1352</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[P.S. - Sorry - somehow my links in the last comment light up but don&#039;t take one anywhere.

Rollyo -- http://www.rollyo.com/firefoxsearch.html

&quot;Without a net&quot; -- http://www.vianegativa.us/2004/01/22/without-a-net/]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. &#8211; Sorry &#8211; somehow my links in the last comment light up but don&#8217;t take one anywhere.</p>
<p>Rollyo &#8212; <a href="http://www.rollyo.com/firefoxsearch.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.rollyo.com/firefoxsearch.html</a></p>
<p>&#8220;Without a net&#8221; &#8212; <a href="http://www.vianegativa.us/2004/01/22/without-a-net/" rel="ugc">http://www.vianegativa.us/2004/01/22/without-a-net/</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Peter		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1351</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Jul 2006 04:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1351</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The former. (That was right ambiguous.)

But to return to the positive side, blogging has often helped to clarify my thinking, sometimes by enlarging it.  Tonight I added a search engine to Firefox&#039;s search bar named &quot;VN Search.&quot; (I used &lt;a&gt;Rollyo&lt;/a&gt;.)  When I type in a query and select VN Search, I get every instance of the word(s) on Via Negativa&#039;s new and old web sites.  For instance, I typed in &quot;apophatic,&quot; the biggest word I know, and was attracted to a post named &lt;a&gt;&quot;Without a net.&quot;&lt;/a&gt; This article has helped to broaden my understanding of apophatic thought.

My other search engines are for answers.  VN Search is for when I want questions, or at least when I want my own questions to be better framed.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The former. (That was right ambiguous.)</p>
<p>But to return to the positive side, blogging has often helped to clarify my thinking, sometimes by enlarging it.  Tonight I added a search engine to Firefox&#8217;s search bar named &#8220;VN Search.&#8221; (I used <a>Rollyo</a>.)  When I type in a query and select VN Search, I get every instance of the word(s) on Via Negativa&#8217;s new and old web sites.  For instance, I typed in &#8220;apophatic,&#8221; the biggest word I know, and was attracted to a post named <a>&#8220;Without a net.&#8221;</a> This article has helped to broaden my understanding of apophatic thought.</p>
<p>My other search engines are for answers.  VN Search is for when I want questions, or at least when I want my own questions to be better framed.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1350</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Jul 2006 23:36:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1350</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the comment. Your experience sounds much like mine. But I didn&#039;t understand what you meant by &quot;...come out online&quot;: they expressed themselves in your online activity? Or do you mean you got rid of them?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comment. Your experience sounds much like mine. But I didn&#8217;t understand what you meant by &#8220;&#8230;come out online&#8221;: they expressed themselves in your online activity? Or do you mean you got rid of them?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Peter		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1349</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Jul 2006 21:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/07/07/the-web-and-other-fables/#comment-1349</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Another fine last line, Dave.

Most of the people I interact with at work, home, and other offline settings are not like me.  One of the neatest things about blogging is the disproportionate number of people who are like me.  That is, they share certain personality traits and interests: people who enjoy abstraction, writing, and self-publishing.

It has been interesting watching myself as I&#039;ve blogged for two years.  My tendency to binge, to throw myself at a project until all hours, and to work for an unhealthy and dull perfection have all come out online.  There is far less accountability online as there sometimes is offline.  Criticism doesn&#039;t work well online -- emoticons don&#039;t begin to put a remark in the perspective one might put a remark in person -- so I could be left to my own devices if I lived too much of a virtual life.

But blogging and commenting has clarified my thinking so much and have given me so much joy.  I guess balance is all.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another fine last line, Dave.</p>
<p>Most of the people I interact with at work, home, and other offline settings are not like me.  One of the neatest things about blogging is the disproportionate number of people who are like me.  That is, they share certain personality traits and interests: people who enjoy abstraction, writing, and self-publishing.</p>
<p>It has been interesting watching myself as I&#8217;ve blogged for two years.  My tendency to binge, to throw myself at a project until all hours, and to work for an unhealthy and dull perfection have all come out online.  There is far less accountability online as there sometimes is offline.  Criticism doesn&#8217;t work well online &#8212; emoticons don&#8217;t begin to put a remark in the perspective one might put a remark in person &#8212; so I could be left to my own devices if I lived too much of a virtual life.</p>
<p>But blogging and commenting has clarified my thinking so much and have given me so much joy.  I guess balance is all.</p>
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