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	<title>
	Comments on: Forbidden fruit	</title>
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	<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/</link>
	<description>Purveyors of fine poetry since 2003.</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:41:47 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1693</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:41:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1693</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[HI Jo! Glad you could join the party (latecomers always welcome). Have some conjoined walnuts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>HI Jo! Glad you could join the party (latecomers always welcome). Have some conjoined walnuts.</p>
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		<title>
		By: jo		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1692</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Aug 2006 01:40:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1692</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[What fun--getting in on a rousing conversation!
I love the word --source?
It would be fun playing with the erotic possibilities of the 
the (fairly) new 39-cent First Harvest veggie/sunflower stamp.
Let&#039;s hear it for the gov&#039;ment and Lammas!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What fun&#8211;getting in on a rousing conversation!<br />
I love the word &#8211;source?<br />
It would be fun playing with the erotic possibilities of the<br />
the (fairly) new 39-cent First Harvest veggie/sunflower stamp.<br />
Let&#8217;s hear it for the gov&#8217;ment and Lammas!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1691</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 18:29:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1691</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Beth, All I can find is the link to the NPR story. Here&#039;s the transcript (from &lt;a href=&quot;http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_digbysblog_archive.html#115526276466077365&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;):
&lt;blockquote&gt;August 7, 2006 from Morning Edition (JOHN HENDREN reporting)

This is how staggeringly pointless the killing in Iraq is getting: shepherds in the rural western Baghdad neighborhood of Gazalea have recently been murdered, according to locals, for failing to diaper their goats. Apparently the sexual tension is so high in regions where Sheikhs take a draconian view of Shariah law, that they feel the sight of naked goats poses an unacceptable temptation. They blame the goats.

I&#039;ve spent nearly a year here, on more than a dozen visits since the early days of the war, and that seemed about as preposterous as Iraq could get until I heard about the grocery store in east Baghdad. The grocer and three others were shot to death and the store was firebombed because he suggestively arranged his vegetables.

I didn&#039;t believe it at first. Firebombings of liquor stores are common, and I figured there must&#039;ve been one next door. But an Iraqi colleague explained matter-of-factly that Shiite clerics had recently distributed a flyer directing groceries how to display their food.

Standing up a celery stalk near a couple of tomatoes in a way that might &#8212; to the profoundly repressed &#8212; suggest an aroused male, is now a capital offense.&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beth, All I can find is the link to the NPR story. Here&#8217;s the transcript (from <a href="http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_digbysblog_archive.html#115526276466077365" rel="nofollow">here</a>):</p>
<blockquote><p>August 7, 2006 from Morning Edition (JOHN HENDREN reporting)</p>
<p>This is how staggeringly pointless the killing in Iraq is getting: shepherds in the rural western Baghdad neighborhood of Gazalea have recently been murdered, according to locals, for failing to diaper their goats. Apparently the sexual tension is so high in regions where Sheikhs take a draconian view of Shariah law, that they feel the sight of naked goats poses an unacceptable temptation. They blame the goats.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve spent nearly a year here, on more than a dozen visits since the early days of the war, and that seemed about as preposterous as Iraq could get until I heard about the grocery store in east Baghdad. The grocer and three others were shot to death and the store was firebombed because he suggestively arranged his vegetables.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t believe it at first. Firebombings of liquor stores are common, and I figured there must&#8217;ve been one next door. But an Iraqi colleague explained matter-of-factly that Shiite clerics had recently distributed a flyer directing groceries how to display their food.</p>
<p>Standing up a celery stalk near a couple of tomatoes in a way that might &mdash; to the profoundly repressed &mdash; suggest an aroused male, is now a capital offense.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>
		By: Natalie		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1690</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Natalie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 17:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1690</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks for pointing to that poem by Sharon Olds, Dave, I hadn&#039;t seen it before. It&#039;s wonderful.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for pointing to that poem by Sharon Olds, Dave, I hadn&#8217;t seen it before. It&#8217;s wonderful.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1689</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1689</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Brenda - Thanks for the fun comment. I sort of like the idea of a body as a living recording system.

Beth - As far as I know, the NPR reporter was the sole source of that story, though I admit I didn&#039;t try every possible Google combination. I&#039;ll see if I can find anything else on the Academic Universe (formerly Lexis/Nexis) database.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brenda &#8211; Thanks for the fun comment. I sort of like the idea of a body as a living recording system.</p>
<p>Beth &#8211; As far as I know, the NPR reporter was the sole source of that story, though I admit I didn&#8217;t try every possible Google combination. I&#8217;ll see if I can find anything else on the Academic Universe (formerly Lexis/Nexis) database.</p>
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		<title>
		By: beth		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1688</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[beth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:36:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1688</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great post, Dave. And I agree with you completely about the comparatively lifeless quality of most American towns and the  effect of schiphrenic desexualization of actual individual lives/hyper-sexualization of the media on people. And could obsessive overeating to be one way in which people deal with the need to have a physical relationship with their bodies.

Has anyone checked out the original story about the vegetable vendor being put to death? I saw the reference too - but I wonder, is it really true? Certainly could be - but - wow.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post, Dave. And I agree with you completely about the comparatively lifeless quality of most American towns and the  effect of schiphrenic desexualization of actual individual lives/hyper-sexualization of the media on people. And could obsessive overeating to be one way in which people deal with the need to have a physical relationship with their bodies.</p>
<p>Has anyone checked out the original story about the vegetable vendor being put to death? I saw the reference too &#8211; but I wonder, is it really true? Certainly could be &#8211; but &#8211; wow.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Brenda		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1687</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brenda]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 14:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1687</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Weren&#039;t tomatoes originally banned in Europe, or considered suspect, when they were first introduced from the &quot;New World&quot;? They were thought to be entirely too sexy.

And, damn, I haven&#039;t read the Bakhtan, so can&#039;t participate in this discussion as I would like to. But I have delved into the abject through Kristeva, which isn&#039;t quite the grotesque body, but the body of illness, that leaks, has pus, sores, smells. Not quite sexuality, mind you. Though in a piece of work I used those notions of the abject body when speaking about the baggy, bleeding post partum body, which sort of is sex taken to its fruit. Oh, my, my puns aren&#039;t working today!

There are so many &quot;bodies,&quot; and ways of understanding the bode has shifted through history. Laqueur wrote a great book on gynaecological drawings for genital anatomy and showed how for long periods a woman&#039;s vagina was considered an inversion of a penis. Now &lt;i&gt;that&lt;/i&gt; would make a most interesting tomato!

It seems, from what you written, that Bakhtin was speaking perhaps more about a &#039;sociological body&#039; than one, say, of private eroticism, or the body we cleanse in the bathroom. The body as it complies to social norms, both fulfulling social expectations and propogating those kinds of social constructions. It&#039;s a complicated body for sure! As Teju mentions, that body is flayed about in the media with &quot;sanitized sex and eroticized violence.&quot;

My personal preference in &quot;body talk&quot; is the body, which we really can&#039;t know, through the various &#039;systems&#039; we have defined: circulatory, nerves, meridians, Chi, whatever, composed of billions of cells subject to electro-chemical processes that are pure wizardry. That the body is a transducer, a relay station, that sexual and erotic and social and violent and deathly impulses flash through it, through us. I love Braidotti on this, if I may include a lengthy quote:

With reference to molecular biology, genetics and neurology - to mention just a few - the body today can and should be described...also as a sensor; an integrated site of information networks....a messenger carrying thousands of communication systems: cardio-vascular, respiratory, visual, acoustic, tactile, olfactory, hormonal, psychic, emotional, erotics, etc. Coordinated by an inimitable circuit of information transmission, the body is a living recording system, capable of sorting and then retrieving the necessary information and to process it at such speed that it can react â€˜instinctively.&#039; Fundamentally prone to pleasure, the embodied subject tends towards the recollection and repetition of experiences which pleasure has â€˜fixed&#039; psychically and sensually upon the subject (to re-member, after all, is to re-peat and repetition tends to favour that which gave joy and not that which gave pain). The body is not only multi-functional but also in some ways multi-lingual: it speaks through temperature, motion, speed, emotions, excitement that affects the cardiac rhythm and the likes. &quot;http://www.chairetmetal.com/cm06/braidotti-complet.htm

Genetically altered tomatoes anyone? :grins:]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Weren&#8217;t tomatoes originally banned in Europe, or considered suspect, when they were first introduced from the &#8220;New World&#8221;? They were thought to be entirely too sexy.</p>
<p>And, damn, I haven&#8217;t read the Bakhtan, so can&#8217;t participate in this discussion as I would like to. But I have delved into the abject through Kristeva, which isn&#8217;t quite the grotesque body, but the body of illness, that leaks, has pus, sores, smells. Not quite sexuality, mind you. Though in a piece of work I used those notions of the abject body when speaking about the baggy, bleeding post partum body, which sort of is sex taken to its fruit. Oh, my, my puns aren&#8217;t working today!</p>
<p>There are so many &#8220;bodies,&#8221; and ways of understanding the bode has shifted through history. Laqueur wrote a great book on gynaecological drawings for genital anatomy and showed how for long periods a woman&#8217;s vagina was considered an inversion of a penis. Now <i>that</i> would make a most interesting tomato!</p>
<p>It seems, from what you written, that Bakhtin was speaking perhaps more about a &#8216;sociological body&#8217; than one, say, of private eroticism, or the body we cleanse in the bathroom. The body as it complies to social norms, both fulfulling social expectations and propogating those kinds of social constructions. It&#8217;s a complicated body for sure! As Teju mentions, that body is flayed about in the media with &#8220;sanitized sex and eroticized violence.&#8221;</p>
<p>My personal preference in &#8220;body talk&#8221; is the body, which we really can&#8217;t know, through the various &#8216;systems&#8217; we have defined: circulatory, nerves, meridians, Chi, whatever, composed of billions of cells subject to electro-chemical processes that are pure wizardry. That the body is a transducer, a relay station, that sexual and erotic and social and violent and deathly impulses flash through it, through us. I love Braidotti on this, if I may include a lengthy quote:</p>
<p>With reference to molecular biology, genetics and neurology &#8211; to mention just a few &#8211; the body today can and should be described&#8230;also as a sensor; an integrated site of information networks&#8230;.a messenger carrying thousands of communication systems: cardio-vascular, respiratory, visual, acoustic, tactile, olfactory, hormonal, psychic, emotional, erotics, etc. Coordinated by an inimitable circuit of information transmission, the body is a living recording system, capable of sorting and then retrieving the necessary information and to process it at such speed that it can react â€˜instinctively.&#8217; Fundamentally prone to pleasure, the embodied subject tends towards the recollection and repetition of experiences which pleasure has â€˜fixed&#8217; psychically and sensually upon the subject (to re-member, after all, is to re-peat and repetition tends to favour that which gave joy and not that which gave pain). The body is not only multi-functional but also in some ways multi-lingual: it speaks through temperature, motion, speed, emotions, excitement that affects the cardiac rhythm and the likes. &#8220;http://www.chairetmetal.com/cm06/braidotti-complet.htm</p>
<p>Genetically altered tomatoes anyone? :grins:</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1686</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1686</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The Tumescent Tomato -- what a great name for a pub!
&lt;blockquote&gt;Recently a venue in London hosted a masturbation marathon, for example.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Sex meets competitive athleticism -- reminds me of that &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.poemhunter.com/p/m/poem.asp?poet=10652&amp;poem=106308&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;poem by Sharon Olds&lt;/a&gt; I linked to a little while back.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tumescent Tomato &#8212; what a great name for a pub!</p>
<blockquote><p>Recently a venue in London hosted a masturbation marathon, for example.</p></blockquote>
<p>Sex meets competitive athleticism &#8212; reminds me of that <a href="http://www.poemhunter.com/p/m/poem.asp?poet=10652&#038;poem=106308" rel="nofollow">poem by Sharon Olds</a> I linked to a little while back.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Natalie		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1685</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Natalie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 11:21:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1685</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wow. They don&#039;t grow tomatoes like that over here (at least I haven&#039;t see them) but if they did, they&#039;d appear on the cover of Sunday colour supplements and be sold in chichi sex shops next to fancy vibrators and there&#039;d be a pub called the Tumescent Tomato and a TV series called How to Grow Sexy Veggies and a learned society would debate  sexuality in vegetables and.......etc. etc. The shock-horror-blush factor has been gradually excised from this society since the 60s and while it may still exist in some remote parts of the kingdom (sorry, queendom) I don&#039;t think anyone is shocked by anything anymore, violence included. Recently a venue in London hosted a masturbation marathon, for example.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wow. They don&#8217;t grow tomatoes like that over here (at least I haven&#8217;t see them) but if they did, they&#8217;d appear on the cover of Sunday colour supplements and be sold in chichi sex shops next to fancy vibrators and there&#8217;d be a pub called the Tumescent Tomato and a TV series called How to Grow Sexy Veggies and a learned society would debate  sexuality in vegetables and&#8230;&#8230;.etc. etc. The shock-horror-blush factor has been gradually excised from this society since the 60s and while it may still exist in some remote parts of the kingdom (sorry, queendom) I don&#8217;t think anyone is shocked by anything anymore, violence included. Recently a venue in London hosted a masturbation marathon, for example.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1684</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Aug 2006 00:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/08/16/forbidden-fruit/#comment-1684</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Karen - But are the goats wearing diapers?

I&#039;m glad to hear that well-endowed tomatoes are popping up other places. Someone should start a Freaks of Nature Blog Carnival!

Teju - I&#039;ve actually toyed with the idea of writing a book on Duerer. Interesting guy.

&quot;life is in the process of figuring itself out&quot; - so the fundamentalist opposition to evolution relates to this too! Good lord.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Karen &#8211; But are the goats wearing diapers?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad to hear that well-endowed tomatoes are popping up other places. Someone should start a Freaks of Nature Blog Carnival!</p>
<p>Teju &#8211; I&#8217;ve actually toyed with the idea of writing a book on Duerer. Interesting guy.</p>
<p>&#8220;life is in the process of figuring itself out&#8221; &#8211; so the fundamentalist opposition to evolution relates to this too! Good lord.</p>
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