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	<title>
	Comments on: Shirts and skins	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/</link>
	<description>Purveyors of fine poetry since 2003.</description>
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	<item>
		<title>
		By: Peter		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1863</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Sep 2006 21:47:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/01/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1863</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[You guys were tough!  We never did shirts and skins touch football.  We did lots of shirts and skins basketball, though.  Indoors basketball.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You guys were tough!  We never did shirts and skins touch football.  We did lots of shirts and skins basketball, though.  Indoors basketball.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1862</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Sep 2006 19:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/01/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1862</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Whoa. That&#039;s messed up (to put it mildly).

&lt;i&gt;What display of huge strength of character&lt;/i&gt;
I don&#039;t know about that. When i look back on those days, I see an arrogant little snob who withdrew into his own, private world in order to shield himself from social bruising, and accepted the role of class pariah and brain because it meant he would be left pretty much alone. My pacifism, which I think had a quasi-Christian origin,  flourished in the shadow of my older brother&#039;s nuclear umbrella -- Tyroners have long memories, and his creaming of a supposedly tough kid two years his senior was not soon forgotten. At any rate, to me, character is best measured in positive acts of kindness and generosity, and I can&#039;t remember committing too many of those. I was a self-centered little beast. (Not that I&#039;m that much better now, actually.)]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa. That&#8217;s messed up (to put it mildly).</p>
<p><i>What display of huge strength of character</i><br />
I don&#8217;t know about that. When i look back on those days, I see an arrogant little snob who withdrew into his own, private world in order to shield himself from social bruising, and accepted the role of class pariah and brain because it meant he would be left pretty much alone. My pacifism, which I think had a quasi-Christian origin,  flourished in the shadow of my older brother&#8217;s nuclear umbrella &#8212; Tyroners have long memories, and his creaming of a supposedly tough kid two years his senior was not soon forgotten. At any rate, to me, character is best measured in positive acts of kindness and generosity, and I can&#8217;t remember committing too many of those. I was a self-centered little beast. (Not that I&#8217;m that much better now, actually.)</p>
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		<title>
		By: Bill		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1861</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Sep 2006 16:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/01/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1861</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;I learned to stand still and smile when someone punched me in the chest with all their strength, and to show up at the appointed spot for an after-school fight ready to turn the other, defiant cheek.&quot;

What display of huge strength of character, a territory beyond what my own small region of pusillaminity could ever recognize.  I think I developed early habits of cowardice which have only rooted deeper over time.  How did you refuse the temptation to defend yourself?  What were your models?  Your father certainly.   As well your pacificism would have been abetted by your seclusion from television and perhaps pulp fiction as well.  I got into a modest appointed afterschool bout that was well attended, as all such advertised matches were.  I had no idea how to throw a punch and the whole thing was play-acting mostly.  I think I struck the fellow once in the face, somewhat openhandedly.  A very dissappointed teacher broke the contest up and I was walked home from the playground attended by an newly admiring friend who jibbered excitedly  &quot;You really connected with that one punch. You could the hear the &#039;pow&#039;  just like on TV!&quot;   The suprising payoff was a moment of intimate comity and amnity with my opponent the next day at gym, grins, eye contact and  shared bonds of fat lips and sore shoulders.
I see myself here sadly conforming to overiding expectations, absolutely lacking independent vision.  Old news.

As I reread I see I use &quot;attended&quot; twice.  Yes.  Attention is what I got.  I announced to the school that was conformable in nomal, expectable, ways.  What were you announcing to the greater public with your refusals?    That you presented unknowable and independent mind?  Payments of tribute that attended your pathway were scorn, abuse, electric, poisoinous regard daily confirming your identity.

My partner is a high school teacher.  She has a new student who seldom comes to school.  The principal finally explained to here that the student, very small for his age, had been savagely hazed at his previous school, perhaps St. Louis&#039; most prestigious private high school.  The hazing culminated in the student being lifted over the head of his tormenter and thrown to the wood floor of a basketball court, while the coach was looking the other way.  The student&#039;s neck was broken and he spent a year in recovery.    A  case was brought to court but thrown out by the judge, due to conflicting eyewitness accounts.  The hazers were never punished by their school.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I learned to stand still and smile when someone punched me in the chest with all their strength, and to show up at the appointed spot for an after-school fight ready to turn the other, defiant cheek.&#8221;</p>
<p>What display of huge strength of character, a territory beyond what my own small region of pusillaminity could ever recognize.  I think I developed early habits of cowardice which have only rooted deeper over time.  How did you refuse the temptation to defend yourself?  What were your models?  Your father certainly.   As well your pacificism would have been abetted by your seclusion from television and perhaps pulp fiction as well.  I got into a modest appointed afterschool bout that was well attended, as all such advertised matches were.  I had no idea how to throw a punch and the whole thing was play-acting mostly.  I think I struck the fellow once in the face, somewhat openhandedly.  A very dissappointed teacher broke the contest up and I was walked home from the playground attended by an newly admiring friend who jibbered excitedly  &#8220;You really connected with that one punch. You could the hear the &#8216;pow&#8217;  just like on TV!&#8221;   The suprising payoff was a moment of intimate comity and amnity with my opponent the next day at gym, grins, eye contact and  shared bonds of fat lips and sore shoulders.<br />
I see myself here sadly conforming to overiding expectations, absolutely lacking independent vision.  Old news.</p>
<p>As I reread I see I use &#8220;attended&#8221; twice.  Yes.  Attention is what I got.  I announced to the school that was conformable in nomal, expectable, ways.  What were you announcing to the greater public with your refusals?    That you presented unknowable and independent mind?  Payments of tribute that attended your pathway were scorn, abuse, electric, poisoinous regard daily confirming your identity.</p>
<p>My partner is a high school teacher.  She has a new student who seldom comes to school.  The principal finally explained to here that the student, very small for his age, had been savagely hazed at his previous school, perhaps St. Louis&#8217; most prestigious private high school.  The hazing culminated in the student being lifted over the head of his tormenter and thrown to the wood floor of a basketball court, while the coach was looking the other way.  The student&#8217;s neck was broken and he spent a year in recovery.    A  case was brought to court but thrown out by the judge, due to conflicting eyewitness accounts.  The hazers were never punished by their school.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1860</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Sep 2006 20:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/01/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1860</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;Many questions twining and amorphous depending on context and interpretation.&lt;/i&gt;
Well put.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>Many questions twining and amorphous depending on context and interpretation.</i><br />
Well put.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Zhoen		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1859</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zhoen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Sep 2006 15:54:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/01/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1859</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To complicate the argument further,  images of nude women are publicly acceptable, but not male nudes.   Men can take off their shirts in public, women cannot. 

There is a strange power being the only one in a room without clothing,  but would not be  if it is by force of the rest, being the epitome of vulnerability.

Many questions twining and amorphous depending on context and interpretation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To complicate the argument further,  images of nude women are publicly acceptable, but not male nudes.   Men can take off their shirts in public, women cannot. </p>
<p>There is a strange power being the only one in a room without clothing,  but would not be  if it is by force of the rest, being the epitome of vulnerability.</p>
<p>Many questions twining and amorphous depending on context and interpretation.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1858</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Sep 2006 11:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/01/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1858</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Good questions.

Thanks for the comment and reading recommendation. I might come back in a day or two with some more reactions.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good questions.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment and reading recommendation. I might come back in a day or two with some more reactions.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>
		By: Brett		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1857</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 02 Sep 2006 04:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2006/09/01/shirts-and-skins/#comment-1857</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Clothing certainly conveys meaning, status, identity, and as you suggest, ethnicity.  There must be some sort of dialectic occurring between those with different sartorial standards.  But it is very hard for me not to see it as a one-way power play.  The &quot;skins&quot; mimic the naked &quot;savage,&quot; and in so doing, in ways subtle and not, show again who in this society may fetishize the other.  
But what is happening the other way?  What is happening to the traditionally, necessarily, colonially underclad when young white boys flaunt tattoos and naked chests and tribal motifs?  Does this act of the powerful taking off their clothes serve only to cement the otherness of the other, or does the other gain something intrinsic in all this?  
For a good read on such things, there is the Comaroffs&#039; study of British missions in South Africa &quot;Of Revelation and Revolution.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clothing certainly conveys meaning, status, identity, and as you suggest, ethnicity.  There must be some sort of dialectic occurring between those with different sartorial standards.  But it is very hard for me not to see it as a one-way power play.  The &#8220;skins&#8221; mimic the naked &#8220;savage,&#8221; and in so doing, in ways subtle and not, show again who in this society may fetishize the other.<br />
But what is happening the other way?  What is happening to the traditionally, necessarily, colonially underclad when young white boys flaunt tattoos and naked chests and tribal motifs?  Does this act of the powerful taking off their clothes serve only to cement the otherness of the other, or does the other gain something intrinsic in all this?<br />
For a good read on such things, there is the Comaroffs&#8217; study of British missions in South Africa &#8220;Of Revelation and Revolution.&#8221;</p>
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