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	<title>
	Comments on: Neanderthal	</title>
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	<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/</link>
	<description>Purveyors of fine poetry since 2003.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4028</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4028</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[David - In light of Moira&#039;s very good example of insects, I can&#039;t agree that the &lt;em&gt;most&lt;/em&gt; repulsive and frightening monsters are the ones that look most like us, but perhaps it&#039;s a different form of repulsion? I do agree that the repulsion seems strongest at the two ends of the continuum of resemblance to us.

But Moira, some insects are generally perceived as cute, such as ladybugs, while others -- earwigs, cockroaches -- produce revulsion. I suppose we can chalk that up to the power of the human imagination to project neotenic qualities onto small, rounded things even when they are, objectively speaking, quite unlike human infants.

H. sapiens, neanderthalis, and erectus were all contemporaries, along with maybe one or two other distinct hominid species. H. erectus was, based on current fossil evidence, the most widespread hominid prior to us, getting as far as Australia, so the fact that scientists now believe it was &lt;em&gt;not&lt;/em&gt; an ancestor is really quite shocking.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David &#8211; In light of Moira&#8217;s very good example of insects, I can&#8217;t agree that the <em>most</em> repulsive and frightening monsters are the ones that look most like us, but perhaps it&#8217;s a different form of repulsion? I do agree that the repulsion seems strongest at the two ends of the continuum of resemblance to us.</p>
<p>But Moira, some insects are generally perceived as cute, such as ladybugs, while others &#8212; earwigs, cockroaches &#8212; produce revulsion. I suppose we can chalk that up to the power of the human imagination to project neotenic qualities onto small, rounded things even when they are, objectively speaking, quite unlike human infants.</p>
<p>H. sapiens, neanderthalis, and erectus were all contemporaries, along with maybe one or two other distinct hominid species. H. erectus was, based on current fossil evidence, the most widespread hominid prior to us, getting as far as Australia, so the fact that scientists now believe it was <em>not</em> an ancestor is really quite shocking.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Moira		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4027</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moira]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:55:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4027</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Also, re: David Harmon&#039;s statement, but on the other side of the coin:  I&#039;ve often wondered at our knee-jerk reaction to insects, and thought it must be because they are so very alien.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, re: David Harmon&#8217;s statement, but on the other side of the coin:  I&#8217;ve often wondered at our knee-jerk reaction to insects, and thought it must be because they are so very alien.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Moira		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4026</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moira]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 03:48:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4026</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As I understand it, neandertalis and sapiens are only the most recent example of (probable) hominid and pre-hominid competition in a long, branching tree of human evolution.  It really is a fascinating subject.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I understand it, neandertalis and sapiens are only the most recent example of (probable) hominid and pre-hominid competition in a long, branching tree of human evolution.  It really is a fascinating subject.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Harmon		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4025</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Harmon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Mar 2007 01:11:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4025</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Re: Lucy&#039;s story and revulsion,  two things to consider:  

First, the most repulsive and frightening monsters are always the ones that are almost, or partly, human... that is the ones that look enough like us to be judged by human standards of appearance, but not enough to &quot;pass&quot; as acceptable.

Secondly... in an ecological context, your worst enemy isn&#039;t necessarily a predator, especially for humans who are prone to fighting back!  Your &lt;i&gt;competitors&lt;/i&gt;  can be a much more serious threat, and more so the closer they are to your preferred niche.  And the Neanderthals certainly shared that first set of major adaptations that shifted us from &quot;ape&quot; to &quot;hominin&quot;....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Lucy&#8217;s story and revulsion,  two things to consider:  </p>
<p>First, the most repulsive and frightening monsters are always the ones that are almost, or partly, human&#8230; that is the ones that look enough like us to be judged by human standards of appearance, but not enough to &#8220;pass&#8221; as acceptable.</p>
<p>Secondly&#8230; in an ecological context, your worst enemy isn&#8217;t necessarily a predator, especially for humans who are prone to fighting back!  Your <i>competitors</i>  can be a much more serious threat, and more so the closer they are to your preferred niche.  And the Neanderthals certainly shared that first set of major adaptations that shifted us from &#8220;ape&#8221; to &#8220;hominin&#8221;&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4024</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Mar 2007 01:44:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4024</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks for these comments. An extremely iffy internet connection today has prevented me responding much sooner. 

David - There&#039;s good evidence that we might have actually been more tolerant of others in premodern times, especially before the advent of cities and agriculture, but I take your point. I&#039;ve often had the same thoughts.

Fred - This &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; outer space.

Lucy - That&#039;s a very interesting story. Thank you. Just the other day, I read a paper by one anthropologist suggesting that hairlessness and lighter skin colors, neither of them features with any adaptive advantages, might be the result not simply of mate selection but also of selective infanticide. But that still doesn&#039;t answer the question: where does the revulsion to hairiness and darkness come from? What lead Homo sapiens to don clothing in the first place? These are still fundamental mysteries, in my opinion. It&#039;s not as if we&#039;re instinctual killers, as Konrad Lorenz and his epigones used to preach. We&#039;re scavengers, for Christ&#039;s sake. Prey. Tiger bait. Perhaps it&#039;s that instinctual &lt;em&gt;fear&lt;/em&gt; that we can&#039;t quite exorcise. Fear and hatred are, after all, pretty tightly linked. I&#039;m not sure a true predator would feel anything akin to hatred.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for these comments. An extremely iffy internet connection today has prevented me responding much sooner. </p>
<p>David &#8211; There&#8217;s good evidence that we might have actually been more tolerant of others in premodern times, especially before the advent of cities and agriculture, but I take your point. I&#8217;ve often had the same thoughts.</p>
<p>Fred &#8211; This <em>is</em> outer space.</p>
<p>Lucy &#8211; That&#8217;s a very interesting story. Thank you. Just the other day, I read a paper by one anthropologist suggesting that hairlessness and lighter skin colors, neither of them features with any adaptive advantages, might be the result not simply of mate selection but also of selective infanticide. But that still doesn&#8217;t answer the question: where does the revulsion to hairiness and darkness come from? What lead Homo sapiens to don clothing in the first place? These are still fundamental mysteries, in my opinion. It&#8217;s not as if we&#8217;re instinctual killers, as Konrad Lorenz and his epigones used to preach. We&#8217;re scavengers, for Christ&#8217;s sake. Prey. Tiger bait. Perhaps it&#8217;s that instinctual <em>fear</em> that we can&#8217;t quite exorcise. Fear and hatred are, after all, pretty tightly linked. I&#8217;m not sure a true predator would feel anything akin to hatred.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lucy		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4023</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lucy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Mar 2007 11:47:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4023</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sorry to keep chiming in on this, but thinking about it afterwards I remembered reading  in a magazine a while ago about how when they were making one of those prehistoric reconstruction programmes, having made up a couple of actors of suitable stature into some form of early hominid, I forget which, with very elaborate make up and prosthetics, they took them on the London Underground out of curiosity to see people&#039;s reactions.  The couple didn&#039;t behave bizarrely, were just there, but the hostility and disgust people showed was overt, at times quite violent, clearly visceral, seeming to surprise even those who showed it, far greater than would have been exhibited to a disabled or deformed person or certainly to an animal, which would have evoked compassion.  One man, a smart professional type, said something very ugly and threatening, and the proto-hominid woman replied &#039; What&#039;s the matter, haven&#039;t you ever seen a ... before?&#039;. The man turned back, suddenly contrite, with &#039;I&#039;m sorry, I didn&#039;t realise it was a medical condition.&#039;
I do wonder if the murderous hatred which can so easily be stirred in people against others of our kind if we can be persuaded of their difference, their inferiority, has its roots in this. 
I too believe in the exceptional human quality of empathy, but like so much of the good which makes us human, it struggles always with the essentially bad which is human too.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to keep chiming in on this, but thinking about it afterwards I remembered reading  in a magazine a while ago about how when they were making one of those prehistoric reconstruction programmes, having made up a couple of actors of suitable stature into some form of early hominid, I forget which, with very elaborate make up and prosthetics, they took them on the London Underground out of curiosity to see people&#8217;s reactions.  The couple didn&#8217;t behave bizarrely, were just there, but the hostility and disgust people showed was overt, at times quite violent, clearly visceral, seeming to surprise even those who showed it, far greater than would have been exhibited to a disabled or deformed person or certainly to an animal, which would have evoked compassion.  One man, a smart professional type, said something very ugly and threatening, and the proto-hominid woman replied &#8216; What&#8217;s the matter, haven&#8217;t you ever seen a &#8230; before?&#8217;. The man turned back, suddenly contrite, with &#8216;I&#8217;m sorry, I didn&#8217;t realise it was a medical condition.&#8217;<br />
I do wonder if the murderous hatred which can so easily be stirred in people against others of our kind if we can be persuaded of their difference, their inferiority, has its roots in this.<br />
I too believe in the exceptional human quality of empathy, but like so much of the good which makes us human, it struggles always with the essentially bad which is human too.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fred Garber		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4022</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred Garber]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 20:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4022</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know about Erecto and Neander, but  according to our family bush and some DNA tests we are related to beans from outerspace.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know about Erecto and Neander, but  according to our family bush and some DNA tests we are related to beans from outerspace.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Harmon		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4021</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Harmon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 18:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4021</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dave:  &lt;i&gt;implying that other hominids were humans, as well. Seems reasonable, but I doubt our ancestors felt that way. I think it&#039;s very likely that the only reason H. erectus and H. neanderthalis are no longer with us is because our ancestors killed them off.&lt;/i&gt;

Until well into the historical era, most of humanity had trouble recognizing other &lt;i&gt;races&lt;/i&gt; as human, if not other tribes!  I sometimes wonder if the story of Cain And Abel might represent a species memory of our treatment of our brother-species.  Also note that even today, all the great apes (AFAIK) and a goodly number of primates are threatened, if not barely short of extinct.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave:  <i>implying that other hominids were humans, as well. Seems reasonable, but I doubt our ancestors felt that way. I think it&#8217;s very likely that the only reason H. erectus and H. neanderthalis are no longer with us is because our ancestors killed them off.</i></p>
<p>Until well into the historical era, most of humanity had trouble recognizing other <i>races</i> as human, if not other tribes!  I sometimes wonder if the story of Cain And Abel might represent a species memory of our treatment of our brother-species.  Also note that even today, all the great apes (AFAIK) and a goodly number of primates are threatened, if not barely short of extinct.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4020</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:46:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4020</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[On the contrary, I think that our ability to empathize is a good part of what makes us human. I mean, what are those cave paintings in France and Spain about, if not an attempt to evoke and summon the spirits of the beloved others (who were also food)?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the contrary, I think that our ability to empathize is a good part of what makes us human. I mean, what are those cave paintings in France and Spain about, if not an attempt to evoke and summon the spirits of the beloved others (who were also food)?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lucy		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/neanderthal/#comment-4019</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lucy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2007 17:30:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/2007/03/24/neanderthal/#comment-4019</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[... modern, and a very thin veneer.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230; modern, and a very thin veneer.</p>
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