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	Comments on: Oracle	</title>
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	<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/</link>
	<description>Purveyors of fine poetry since 2003.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10881</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 May 2009 00:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10881</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s not a nitpick; it&#039;s vital info. I hate broken links. Thanks.

I guess I&#039;m in some space between hope and despair. Maybe denial.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not a nitpick; it&#8217;s vital info. I hate broken links. Thanks.</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m in some space between hope and despair. Maybe denial.</p>
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		<title>
		By: David Harmon		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10880</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Harmon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 22:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10880</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Remember that Hope was the last daemon out of Pandora&#039;s Box....

I&#039;ve spent a long time dealing with a lack of hope -- slowly, it&#039;s trying to lure me back unto its clutches.

Technical nitpick:  Your link to Neruda seems to be missing its beginning &quot;h&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Remember that Hope was the last daemon out of Pandora&#8217;s Box&#8230;.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve spent a long time dealing with a lack of hope &#8212; slowly, it&#8217;s trying to lure me back unto its clutches.</p>
<p>Technical nitpick:  Your link to Neruda seems to be missing its beginning &#8220;h&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10879</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 May 2009 19:36:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10879</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[MB and Laura - Thanks for sharing these additional thoughts. I keep needing to relearn the lesson that certain language and practices that may be medicine for one person might be poison for another. I think it&#039;s that way with hope and mindfulness. The trouble is, without an accomplished guide or teacher, it&#039;s difficult to know which prescriptions to follow.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MB and Laura &#8211; Thanks for sharing these additional thoughts. I keep needing to relearn the lesson that certain language and practices that may be medicine for one person might be poison for another. I think it&#8217;s that way with hope and mindfulness. The trouble is, without an accomplished guide or teacher, it&#8217;s difficult to know which prescriptions to follow.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Laura		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10878</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Laura]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 May 2009 21:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10878</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I went back and read some of what Pema Chodron has to say about hope. It&#039;s more or less the flip side, I think, of what Jensen&#039;s saying. She doesn&#039;t seem to see hope as a surrender of agency but as a way of moving out of mindfulness and into an imaginary, more abstract, less grounded place. Out in front or behind this thing that&#039;s happening now. She says,too, and I hadn&#039;t remembered this, that hope and fear are connected and imply an inherent lack. So does Jensen, of course, and I think he&#039;s right, that so much of contemporary civilization mandates transformation at a bare minimum. I&#039;m becoming aware of a disconnect here for me between the idea of mindfulness and being here now and the need to tear down so many of the walls of our dysfunctional, corroded, hobbled society. This is all part of what&#039;s frustrated me from time to time about Buddhism or what I know of it: it seems to me to imply a passivity that I just can&#039;t quite get with much of the time.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I went back and read some of what Pema Chodron has to say about hope. It&#8217;s more or less the flip side, I think, of what Jensen&#8217;s saying. She doesn&#8217;t seem to see hope as a surrender of agency but as a way of moving out of mindfulness and into an imaginary, more abstract, less grounded place. Out in front or behind this thing that&#8217;s happening now. She says,too, and I hadn&#8217;t remembered this, that hope and fear are connected and imply an inherent lack. So does Jensen, of course, and I think he&#8217;s right, that so much of contemporary civilization mandates transformation at a bare minimum. I&#8217;m becoming aware of a disconnect here for me between the idea of mindfulness and being here now and the need to tear down so many of the walls of our dysfunctional, corroded, hobbled society. This is all part of what&#8217;s frustrated me from time to time about Buddhism or what I know of it: it seems to me to imply a passivity that I just can&#8217;t quite get with much of the time.</p>
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		<title>
		By: mb		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10877</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 22:22:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10877</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks, Dave, for your response. I guess I view hope as a more complexly interrelated thing than he seems to, or perhaps than you do. As much as it can imply a surrendering of agency, it can spur and nourish action, in precisely the opposite manner to that which he describes. Which is not to dismiss the idea that for some it &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; cause reliance and inaction, only to point out that, in my view, for others it can be productive because a complexity exists that he appears to not accept.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Dave, for your response. I guess I view hope as a more complexly interrelated thing than he seems to, or perhaps than you do. As much as it can imply a surrendering of agency, it can spur and nourish action, in precisely the opposite manner to that which he describes. Which is not to dismiss the idea that for some it <i>does</i> cause reliance and inaction, only to point out that, in my view, for others it can be productive because a complexity exists that he appears to not accept.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10876</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 18:39:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10876</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10875&quot;&gt;mb&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, MB. I hope some other readers respond to it, too, but here are a couple of my own preliminary reactions:

I think Derrick is right in saying that hope implies a surrendering of agency, though certainly he may have resorted to a little bit of hyperbole there. But I think your critique of his possible hubris is accurate, too -- and jibes with my own observations of successful agitators and activists. They are quite often on the arrogant side. In pondering this further, I think my own reservations about our cultural emphasis on hope relate to my intense suspicion of progressivist narratives. Without necessarily romanticizing the past, I don&#039;t think the anthropological evidence supports the view of continual progress from the days of small-band, gatherer-hunter societies. I also find myself much more sympathetic to a fatalistic view that says that ultimately the universe is way, way bigger than us, and all our efforts amount to fairly little. And that being the case, I feel reverence and humility are imperative.  Though not Muslim, I often find myself mentally (or actually) adding &quot;inshallah&quot; to hopeful statements, because it strikes me as presumptuous to count on favorable outcomes. So I guess I do come down on your side here, though I&#039;m not sure Jensen would disagree too strongly with this view of things, either. Thanks to you and Matthew for pushing me to think more deeply about this (and to re-read the essay).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10875">mb</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for the thoughtful comment, MB. I hope some other readers respond to it, too, but here are a couple of my own preliminary reactions:</p>
<p>I think Derrick is right in saying that hope implies a surrendering of agency, though certainly he may have resorted to a little bit of hyperbole there. But I think your critique of his possible hubris is accurate, too &#8212; and jibes with my own observations of successful agitators and activists. They are quite often on the arrogant side. In pondering this further, I think my own reservations about our cultural emphasis on hope relate to my intense suspicion of progressivist narratives. Without necessarily romanticizing the past, I don&#8217;t think the anthropological evidence supports the view of continual progress from the days of small-band, gatherer-hunter societies. I also find myself much more sympathetic to a fatalistic view that says that ultimately the universe is way, way bigger than us, and all our efforts amount to fairly little. And that being the case, I feel reverence and humility are imperative.  Though not Muslim, I often find myself mentally (or actually) adding &#8220;inshallah&#8221; to hopeful statements, because it strikes me as presumptuous to count on favorable outcomes. So I guess I do come down on your side here, though I&#8217;m not sure Jensen would disagree too strongly with this view of things, either. Thanks to you and Matthew for pushing me to think more deeply about this (and to re-read the essay).</p>
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		<title>
		By: mb		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10875</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mb]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 17:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10875</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Dave, Derrick Jensen has an all-or-nothing view of hope I don’t buy and has made it the premise of his article. At least as I read it, he says hope means you have no control. If I have hope, it does imply some lack of control, but does not mean total lack of control. Plenty of situations in life and on earth I can think of allow for partial, not complete, control.

There is almost a kind of hubris in the statement, “I do not hope coho salmon survive. I will do whatever it takes to make sure the dominant culture doesn’t drive them extinct.” No one can know that their efforts will be successful: life on this planet is far too vast, complicated, mysterious, and chaotic a system to ever be completely sure of anything. I work on behalf of the environment without being sure our work will do enough, but I retain hope that it will make a difference and determination to do the work. Another potentially hubristic and certainly oversimplifying statement: “You don’t simply hope your beloved survives and thrives. You do what it takes.” If my beloved has a deadly form of illness, I’ll do what it takes — I’ll make sure he gets whatever treatment or therapy is possible — but his survival is not all in my control. I will still be hoping for his survival, and that is not an “excuse for inaction.”

In my view, Jensen’s oversimplification makes him guilty of his own charge, of “forget[ting] that it is possible to feel many things at once.” It’s a reductionist argument.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dave, Derrick Jensen has an all-or-nothing view of hope I don’t buy and has made it the premise of his article. At least as I read it, he says hope means you have no control. If I have hope, it does imply some lack of control, but does not mean total lack of control. Plenty of situations in life and on earth I can think of allow for partial, not complete, control.</p>
<p>There is almost a kind of hubris in the statement, “I do not hope coho salmon survive. I will do whatever it takes to make sure the dominant culture doesn’t drive them extinct.” No one can know that their efforts will be successful: life on this planet is far too vast, complicated, mysterious, and chaotic a system to ever be completely sure of anything. I work on behalf of the environment without being sure our work will do enough, but I retain hope that it will make a difference and determination to do the work. Another potentially hubristic and certainly oversimplifying statement: “You don’t simply hope your beloved survives and thrives. You do what it takes.” If my beloved has a deadly form of illness, I’ll do what it takes — I’ll make sure he gets whatever treatment or therapy is possible — but his survival is not all in my control. I will still be hoping for his survival, and that is not an “excuse for inaction.”</p>
<p>In my view, Jensen’s oversimplification makes him guilty of his own charge, of “forget[ting] that it is possible to feel many things at once.” It’s a reductionist argument.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10874</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 15:37:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10874</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10873&quot;&gt;Susan&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for the comment. I admire Armstrong, though I haven&#039;t read that book. Interesting observation. I try to be tolerant, even of the chronically intolerant, but the manifest hatred for the world that such religionists evince is very hard for me to take. On the other hand, I do think some feeling of exile is as near to universal as any element of human consciousness can be.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10873">Susan</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for the comment. I admire Armstrong, though I haven&#8217;t read that book. Interesting observation. I try to be tolerant, even of the chronically intolerant, but the manifest hatred for the world that such religionists evince is very hard for me to take. On the other hand, I do think some feeling of exile is as near to universal as any element of human consciousness can be.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Susan		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10873</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Susan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 May 2009 15:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10873</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There are times when the conscious mind is still when one finds bits of unfolding wisdom in reading and glimpses, some kind of secular grace which gets lost as one remembers the agenda. Karen Armstrong wrote a book called &#039;The Battle for God&quot; about the Fundamentalist religions and their basis in fear, politically what I see on the extreme right is a disappointment that the sinful world continues when somehow it should have ended with the millenium.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are times when the conscious mind is still when one finds bits of unfolding wisdom in reading and glimpses, some kind of secular grace which gets lost as one remembers the agenda. Karen Armstrong wrote a book called &#8216;The Battle for God&#8221; about the Fundamentalist religions and their basis in fear, politically what I see on the extreme right is a disappointment that the sinful world continues when somehow it should have ended with the millenium.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dave		</title>
		<link>https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10872</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dave]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 May 2009 15:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vianegativa.us/?p=4711#comment-10872</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10863&quot;&gt;JMartin&lt;/a&gt;.

It&#039;s easy to imagine a post-apocalyptic, Mestizo American future in which the collected works of Neruda replace the Bible for a new, biocentric humanism.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://www.vianegativa.us/2009/05/oracle/#comment-10863">JMartin</a>.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to imagine a post-apocalyptic, Mestizo American future in which the collected works of Neruda replace the Bible for a new, biocentric humanism.</p>
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